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EPISODE 127: Q&A

Date: 09/07/2022

Questions

The book of Hebrews starts by laying out the case that Jesus is better than angels. This teaching would have countered the worship of angels above Jesus, but has it also caused us to downplay the importance of the role angels and the spirit world play in our lives?

  1. I think we have a misunderstanding regarding angels, not primarily because of the Hebrews passage, but because we’re just not clear on what the Bible actually teaches about them. 
  2. There’s a quote that says, “Christians are so heavenly minded they’re of no earthly good.” The problem is that many of the people who’ve done the most earthly good — establishing hospitals, orphanages, clean water, tackled malnutrition, and so on — have been the most heavenly minded people.
  3. Similarly, I don’t think anyone can be so Jesus minded that other parts of our theology and faith are downgraded (like angels). In fact, the more Jesus minded you are the more all of your theology gets elevated. But for those who get wrapped up in secondary theological issues — raising them up as really really important — often their Jesus-mindedness wanes.
  4. Now that I’ve said my bit and am off my soapbox, what does Scripture say about angels?
    1. Angels are messengers. Both in the Old and New Testament we see this as their primary role.
      1. In Genesis, angels appear to Abraham to give him the message about what’s going to happen to Sodom and Gomorrah.
      2. In Matthew an angel appears to Joseph telling him to not abandon Mary. In Luke, an angel appears to Mary.
    2. The Angel of the LORD is prominent in the Old Testament. Often this angel has divine-like qualities. Some interpret the Angel of the Lord to be prefigures of Christ before his incarnation.
      1. Example in Genesis 16:7-13 ESV. After Hagar was sent away by Sarah, “The angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And he said, “Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?” She said, “I am fleeing from my mistress Sarai.” 9 The angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel of the Lord also said to her, “I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude.” 11 And the angel of the Lord said to her, “Behold, you are pregnant and shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has listened to your affliction. 12 He shall be a wild donkey of a man, his hand against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen.” 13 So she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, “You are a God of seeing,” for she said, “Truly here I have seen him who looks after me.”” 
    3. Satan and demons are fallen angels.
      1. In Job Satan appears in the heavenly realms with the other angels.
      2. He’s called the “prince of the power of the air” in Ephesians (which is angelic language).
      3. In Revelation 2 and 3 (mentioned next), the seven churches have seven stars and angels. In chapter 12, Satan is said to have swept a third of the stars out of the sky (stars meaning angels that are now demons).
      4. Jude 1:6 — And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day.
    4. The seven churches in Revelation all have an angel associated with them. This is descriptive — not prescriptive — so we’d be going too far if we suggest that every local church has an angel associated with it.
    5. We’re not to worship angels. Colossians 2:18; Revelation 1
    6. Regarding guardian angels — there’s not much in Scripture to defend the usual idea of guardian angels.
      1. Hebrews 1:14 — Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
      2. Daniel 12:1 — At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
      3. Hebrews 13:2 — Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
      4. Matthew 18:10 — “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
      5. Psalm 91:11 — For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways. (Satan quotes this verse to Jesus as he tempts him. So we know how this verse is fulfilled — in Christ; not us.)

    In Pastor Robert’s sermon on 6/26/22 on 2 Timothy 2:1-19, he said that the word for men in verse 2 indicates both men and women (which I agree with – anthropos in the Greek refers to all humankind), and because of that, both men and women are responsible for spreading the gospel. In light of that, why does Gateway hold the stance that women should not preach from the pulpit? Is that not spreading the gospel, which both men and women are commanded to do per this passage (and many others)?

    1. Since the question asker brings up the Greek language, let’s dive in and see how the original language answers their question. 
    2. In 2 Timothy 2:2, Paul tells Timothy to “entrust to faithful men (and women) who will be able to teach others. The Greek word — translated in English as “teach” — is found 97 times in the New Testament. Never once is it translated as “preach” in English. Only once — in the ESV — is the Greek word not directly translated as “teach/taught/teaching/etc…” and that’s when it’s translated as “directed” in a verse that has nothing to do with preaching. 
    3. Additionally, there is another Greek word that we translate as “preach” in English. In fact, in 2 Timothy — the book Pastor Robert preached from — Paul uses this Greek word in the well-known verse “preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.” (2 Timothy 4:2 ESV) And — notice — that the word “teaching” is in the same verse as a different Greek word translated as preach. And this is the same Greek word translated as teach in chapter 2. So what does this all mean? Well it shows us that Paul means something different between teaching and preaching.
    4. I bring all of this up because the questioner’s point seems to be  “If 2 Timothy 2:2 tells us that men and women are to teach…then why don’t we allow women to preach from the pulpit?” Because teaching and preaching are two different ministries in the church. Are they both ways in which the gospel is spread? Absolutely! So the good news is that men and women — who are both responsible for spreading the gospel — can do so in many ways without limiting ourselves to preaching being the only way this is fulfilled. 

      How do we reconcile or respond to moral failures or alleged moral failures of a church or church leadership? For instance, the Hillsong Church founders and some of its pastors have been accused of abusing members. But does that mean we should boycott the worship songs of the Hillsong band? An investigation into the SBC found that SBC leaders abused women and children but covered it up. Does that mean we abandon resources published by Lifeway, the publishing arm of the SBC? If we took the boycott approach, we would eventually boycott everything. And it “punishes” these individuals or groups that may have no influence or knowledge of the abusive behavior conducted by others in their organization.

      1. On a similar topic, this question came in: Let me preface by saying I just finished the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast which got me wondering how Gateway protects itself from something similar: a dominant lead pastor that eventually becomes almost like a dictator to the detriment of the church?
        1. In what ways is there oversight and accountability for Pastor Josh?
        2. What is the process for major decisions to be made and who leads those discussions or who has the final say in decision making? (Example: should we go down to 1 service vs 2? Should we be a multi-site church or not?)
        3. When there is disagreement in direction between elders, how does it get resolved? Can you share any examples?
        4. What is the staff’s level of authority vs. elders/deacons?
        5. Who sets the vision for the church and what does that process look like?
        6. One of the big problems with Mars Hill and its leadership seemed to be pride. Could Pastor Josh maybe show some vulnerability and talk about any areas or sin in his life today that he wrestles with? What theological areas are a little gray to him right now that he is working through? Is there any stance or view he had that he has recently changed on? Maybe outside of the sin question, are there personality or character items that he sees area for growth for himself?
        1. First, to the second set of questions. I’d encourage anyone listening to go listen to a sermon I preached in our Acts series on August 14, 2022. It’s titled “Team Gateway.” In that sermon I talk about the various roles and responsibilities that elders, staff, deacons, and church members all have. That would cover everything from the vision for Gateway, decision making, and so on. I think it will also help clarify the difference between how Gateway is structured compared to churches like Mars Hill. We have a legitimate plurality of leadership. Meaning, the elders are not my board of directors who hold me accountable in how I lead Gateway. The elders are my co-leaders, co-pastors, co-laborers. In fact, in our denominational language I’m a teaching elder which implies my primary role is to teach and preach God’s Word. Other than Robert — who’s also a teaching elder — the remaining 12 elders are called ruling elders — with their primary responsibility being ruling or leading the church. This is a key distinction between us and churches who view the pastor as the CEO of the church. That’s not our model — which is how Mars Hill was organized.
        2. As far as what should we do with people we admire or have learned from — other pastors, authors, so on — who have a moral failure?
          1. First, we should all respond with prayer and repentance. There’s a juicy gossip train we all seem to jump on when there’s another scandal. Websites and blogs are dedicated to the moral failures of others. And this is to our shame. Now the news should be reported, but our first response as God’s people should be prayer and repentance. Prayer because God’s name and reputation has been dishonored once again. Repentance because we often are quick to speak and judge whoever’s made the headline this week — as if we’re not just as susceptible to giving in to sin ourselves.
          2. Second, I would suggest practicing patience. No need to throw out all of their books today. But watch for repentance in their life. Public repentance because public sin requires public repentance. Watch to see if they just jump back into ministry as if nothing ever happened. If that’s the case, throw their books in the trash. You can find better things to read. But if they do repent — which we should be praying for — rejoice and celebrate for this is what our Heavenly Father is doing because of their repentance.
          3. Third, guard your heart and make growth in personal holiness a priority. One of my life resolutions is: “Remember, what this congregation needs from me most is my personal holiness.” That’s what you need from me. But it’s what I need from you. And what we all need from each other.
          4. Finally, make the local church a priority. Make deepening your relationship with others in your local church a priority. Make knowing your elders a priority. We’re often devastated when a pastor we’ve never met has a scandal. Meanwhile, there are faithful pastors in our lives who we make little effort to get to know, to build a relationship with, and to develop a sweet bond of trust with. Back to us having a plurality of leadership. This means that if you think your elders aren’t real elders — or don’t think you’ve been reached out to unless I (Pastor Josh) have called you — then know that your view of church leadership is too narrow. You’re wanting us to operate in an unbiblical way where — Josh don’t act like the CEO or sole pastor of the church when it comes to authority, but do act like the CEO or sole pastor of the church when it comes to care and relationships. And neither are biblical or healthy. Beyond that, I’ve only got so much relational capital. I can’t build intimate relational trust with everyone at Gateway — there’s just too many folks. But — kind of like the seven degrees of Kevin Bacon — if you get in close relationships with others at Gateway — I bet it won’t take very long before you personally know someone who knows me — or knows someone who knows someone who knows me. And then it’s up to you to trust their relationship with me. Their words about me. Their judgment of me. But know that there’s a large gap of trust that can’t be built unless we all take steps to be in relationships with others — to be known by others — to love and be loved by others. I know this can be scary. I know that past betrayals may make us less trusting of others today. But that’s a hurdle that I and the leadership of Gateway will never be able to get over — no matter how genuinely trustworthy we are — without all of us taking steps towards each other in relationship — what the Bible calls fellowship.